Some musicians just can’t be doing with all that Pacific sunshine and laidback lifestyle:
photo: Oliver Theil/Playbill
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| December 5, 2012 |
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CHICAGO SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA NAMES NEW PRINCIPAL TIMPANI |
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Just in: Chicago poaches timp from San Francisco
December 5, 2012 by
Herbert is without a doubt the best Timpani player I have ever heard, Chicago is lucky and this is a great loss for San Francisco.
Better than these guys (timpani action begins 15 secs in)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dHOhpRr_Vc
I wonder what role (if any) the halls the orchestras play in played in his decision. The hall in Chicago is not great but it doesn’t sound too bad either, but the one in SF has absolutely terrible acoustics, one of the worst I have ever experienced. Obviously all instruments are affected by the acoustics of the all but I think the timpani are affected more than many others, they need a hall with a good acoustic for the *sound* to develop in. In Davies Hall, the timpani sound pretty dry and bangy, like someone kicking in a cardboard box.
The San Francisco Symphony is a fine orchestra, and the city is a comfortable place to live, but Chicago is a much more vibrant metropolis and is home to one of the great symphonies, so it is not surprising that it should attract someone of Herbert’s caliber.
pacific sunshine? you’re thinking souther california. and I don’t think its poaching if someone chooses to audition for a different orchestra.
It’s true, Norman. Have you ever made it out to San Francisco? Lovely city, but they’re not kidding about the fog. San Francisco’s summers (June and July) are notoriously chilly, and the weather most of the year is extremely fickle even by the standards of Britons and New Englanders. One time I was there, the weather changed three times just during my walk across the Golden Gate Bridge. (I’m not exaggerating.) Some neighborhoods are relatively sunny, and some, especially near the ocean, are downright dank. I never truly understood the concept of microclimates until I had been to San Francisco a couple of times.
(The weather is somewhat sunnier and more reliable on the eastern side of the bay, in Oakland, Berkeley, etc. But even there it’s not like in Los Angeles and San Diego, let alone Palm Springs and the other desert towns.)
British school of timpani playing is exceptional. London has by far the best orchestral timpanists in the world. Nigel Thomas at the LSO and Simon Carrington at the LPO. John Chimes at the BBC. Russell Jordon at the ROH. etc, etc. Best intonation and they understand when the timpanist must not only follow but lead the orchestra.
:)
The greatest timpanist that I ever heard was Munich Philharmonic’s Peter Sadlo (he left the orchestra after Celi retired.) The guys that you talk about are great, of course; so is Herbert. Other favorite timpanists: Marinus Komst (Concertgebouw), Roland Altmann (VPO, retired), Vic Firth (Boston, retired), Saul Goodman (legendary NYPO), Jauvon Gilliam (Washington’s National Symphony), Don Liuzzi (Philly).
“London has by far the best orchestral timpanists in the world”
I think that’s a little daring statement with so many very good players around. I do remember though that one of the most impressive performances (from the timpani point of view) I have heard was Mahler 5 with the Philharmonia and Sinopoli in the late 80s. I don’t specifically remember who the timpani player was but it was probably Andy Smith since it says on their website that he’s been there for 37 years. But I do remember just how well he played, with so much nuance and dynamic shades, one almost thought that the piece was in plces a timpani concerto…
However – and that’s a very big however for me when it comes to British timpanis – they seem to play mostly on plastic heads and that simply doesn’t sound that great.
“British school of timpani playing is exceptional”
How so? And why do you think they have the “best intonation”? Do you think non-Brits can’t play the timpani in tune?
Listen to the BPO in Karajan’s time and tell me the timps are always in tune?
Or practically any US orchestra where the timpanist stands while they play?
Great timpani intonation requires that the player keeps their feet on the pedal and adjust the intonation whilst they play, much like a violinist adjusts the string as they play.
It also requires constant adjustment depending on the harmonic context. In Beethoven “Eroica” for instance the B flat is sometimes the 7th of a C7 chord. This must be adjusted slightly differently then when it is the root of a B flat chord. Find me a US Timpani text book that explains any of the above. Certainly never in the standard Goodman book.
Also, Most British Timpanists have long since discarded plastic heads by the way!
And by way of a little bit of trivia, most of the calf skins used by the great orchestras of the world come from a little farm in Co Kildare in Ireland, a couple of miles from where I now write, a family called Katz who carry on the tradition of making calf heads for timpani.!
Disclaimer: I am a tone-deaf clarinetist who used to conduct, too. I had the good sense to stop all that. But I shall still expound on this subject in spite of my lack of qualifications.
Every timpanist that I know in the USA sits to play and occasionally stands to tune when there are a large number of drums or to reach for the mallets. In France until recently, the kettle drummers stood and snare drummers sat on a stool. They seem to have now adopted the opposite tactic like their US counterparts. I even know US timpanists with good ears who do play with just intonation (or so they tell me because I can’t tell the difference). I’m so happy to hear that Irish cows are providing their hides for art’s sake. I wish the family’s name were Quinn so that I could end this by saying: God save the Quinns.
PS: Let’s have a lively chat on whether the low notes are usually on the left or the right of the player and does it matter?
Dear Michael, I am flattered by your comments. In my my book there is no best timpanist, we all have a lonely cross to bear in that our colleagues, whoever they are, expect us to lift their efforts at certain times to greater heights. A timpanist only adds that little bit extra to what the orchestra has to offer. As someone who has ex pupils allover the world I would say to them “plough your own furrow”, I don’t want lots of Andy Smith clones all over the place. The debate about what timpani heads and when to use them is a debate that could run forever, in my case, that is dictated by the opinion of my colleagues and, of course the principal conductor.
Just a couple of updates. I started with the Phil. in December 1972 so anything after that date I am likely to be involved in, although I did work with the band before that ,notably for Klemperor. My experience goes back to Barbirolli, Muti, Boult, Giulini, the young Maazel and James Levine before he hit the big time (we are still close friends today) So I have seen all! Timpani playing is a matter of taste and all we exponents of the the art can do, is pander to the whims of conductors, critics etc. Anyway hooray for me, I an seven days into my 41st year with the Phil., having previously done 3+ years with the BSO, a season with the WNO, and only the good Lord knows how many freelance dates, films, games and library sessions over the years! Just remember that the seat any poor timpanist occupies is a very lonley place, so enough of who is best, they all have my vote.
So Andy – that was you in the concert I talked about? That was in the late 80s, a concert of the Philharmonia in Berlin with Sinopoli. The program was Schubert Unfinished, Mahler 5. It was a phenomenal concert, I remember it as if it was yesterday. It also turned me into a lifelong Sinopoli fan. When I heard his recording of the Unfinished, I was already impressed, not just because it simply is a very nice recording, but because it came with that essay about different layers of dream and consciousness – for which Sinopoli got a lot of ridicule – but the music actually *sounded* like that, and it was even more impressive live. I still remember the eerily floating, luminous sound Sinopoli got from the orchestra in that piece. And the Mahler 5 was very impressive, too, because it was musically so detailed and there was a lot of emphasis on the expressive use of color, something I think Sinopoli was particularly good at.
Not all good UK timpanists reside only in London… The Royal Liverpool Phil has a very fine player in Neil Hitt (yes that’s his name..) along with a marvellous percussion team that Neil emanated from.. It has to said though that the percussionists and Neil originated from the Royal College of Music in London, except for the Principal, a Kiwi – Graham Johns who studied in Amsterdam (Concertgebouw) and Oberlin in the USA..
There are some excellent timpanists in Germany who play very well too..
We are spoilt for great timpanists in London. Don’t forget Tristan Fry.
It’s nice to know that the Saul Goodman family tree is still achieving huge success. David Herbert studied with Rick Holmes in St. Louis and with Roland Kholoff at Juilliard, both of whom were Goodman students. Before Casals, cellists played with their bow arm tucked into their bodies. Before Goodman, timpanists were a pretty crude lot.
Was it Andy Smith that so impressed me in the late 1950s? with Klemp conducting the Philharmonia.
Someone must remember. Timpanists are artist as well as musicians.
I don’t think that it was,if my memory serves me correctly Andrew Smith joined the Philharmonia in the Muti era.Is it possible that the timpanist in the 1950′s in Klemperer’s time was the legendary James Bradshaw??
Markus Rhoten,NYP, Rainer Seegers,Berlin Philharmonic,Simon Carrington,LSO:Those three are MY favourites,
They all adjust their parts to the harmonies of the scores of much of the 19th century repertoire,not just playing two or three notes through one movement as written by many composers,because there were no pedal timpani in their times,Markus sometimes plays most of the double bass part on his instruments,as you can see on the NYP´s Dvorak “New World” Symphony in Pyonyang DVD. The same thing I saw Mr,Seegers doing spectacularly in Bizet`s Carmen Prelude and Verdi Requiem,and Simon Carrington In Tchaikovsky`s Pathetique under Gergiev some years ago at a prom.Those guys almost redifined their instruments,and certainly show spectacular technique combined with stunning musical intelligence.
Alan Cumberland, Timpanist of the LPO in the 70s/80s was the timpanist that pioneered the practice of changing the notes in the timpani repertoire to better reflect the harmonic intention of the composer. Who ‘s previous choices were limited due to availability and quality of drums. This practice caught on around the world and is now standard practice.
OMG. I hear a strange whirring sound. Must be those poor composers twirling in their graves. One wonders if the conductors noticed. Doctoring the works of composers like Beethoven seems to have fallen out of fashion recently. Some performers actually think that, in spite of his auditory handicap, he had a fair idea of what he was doing. And a few weirdos actually follow his metronome markings!
Well, I’m a wind player and we do it, too.
Instruments have evolved and sometimes you make minor changes to compensate. Also, you have to remember that composers are not necesarily as knowedgeable about what an instrument can and cannot do as the instrumentalists themselves. They often make mistakes or write things that have to be changed slightly to work. This includes Beethoven.
Off the top of my head, with Beethoven wind parts, sometimes there are lines that you can carry up into a higher octave so that it matches exactly what string players are doing. Wind instruments of Beethoven’s time couldn’t do this so easily, so he breaks the line and writes the top notes down an octave. This also happens in Tchaik. Also, it’s common practice among certain conductors to request doubled winds in Beethoven – 2 on a part – when Beethoven only wrote for 1 player.
Mahler is a great example of why you have to change what composers have written. He writes notes in some of the wind parts that do not exist on the instrument. We’re not sure if he had special instruments that could play these notes or if he just misunderstood the range and wrote it incorrectly. In any case, the notes don’t exist on the instrument in modern professional orchestras and you have to alter what he wrote.
There are tons of examples of why, if you’re a professional orch. player, you sometimes have to change what the composer wrote. Timpani is no exception.
“They often make mistakes or write things that have to be changed slightly to work. This includes Beethoven.
Off the top of my head, with Beethoven wind parts, sometimes there are lines that you can carry up into a higher octave so that it matches exactly what string players are doing. Wind instruments of Beethoven’s time couldn’t do this so easily, so he breaks the line and writes the top notes down an octave.”
An example for the latter is the flute part in the first movement of the 9th. However, I think that rather suggests that Beethoven was very aware of the properties and limitations of the instruments of his time.
On the other hand, if he had really wanted to continue the line in the flute upwards, he could have used a piccolo there. He used it before, e.g. in the 5th.
One of the most striking examples is in the first movement of the 5th when in the recapitulation, the horn call which bridges to the second theme appears in the bassoons, not in the horns, because the key has changed and the natural horns of the time couldn’t change the tuning crooks that fast.
On the other hand, had he really wanted the horns here, he could have written the parts so that they have enough time to change crooks. He did it before, IIRC in the Eroica.
So it’s not always that obvious that the composer “made a mistake”. Whether or not such passages, especially where they appear to be shaped by limitations of the instruments of the time, should be “corrected” is a long and heated debate, but there is a strong tendency towards not changing them in past decades. The most common view these days is, those were the parameters in which Beethoven worked, they are part of the style of the music, there is no need to change them. Just like there is no need to add saxophones or synthesizers to his symphonies because “if he had had them, maybe he would have written for them”. But he didn’t.
“Also, it’s common practice among certain conductors to request doubled winds in Beethoven – 2 on a part – when Beethoven only wrote for 1 player.”
That was actually already a common practice in Beethoven’s day. If they played in a large venue and enough players were available, they would double the winds to balance the bigger string section – but only in tutti passages. The premieres of the 4th, 7th, 8th and 9th were played with doubled winds.
The wind parts for the premiere of the 4th survive and so one can see the entries where it says “solo” and “tutti” to indicate to the “doublers” where to play and where not.
“Mahler is a great example of why you have to change what composers have written. He writes notes in some of the wind parts that do not exist on the instrument. We’re not sure if he had special instruments that could play these notes or if he just misunderstood the range and wrote it incorrectly. In any case, the notes don’t exist on the instrument in modern professional orchestras and you have to alter what he wrote.”
Really? Can you give an example?
Certainly! Mahler piccolo parts that are written down to low C. It happens several times in his body of compositions. The note doesn’t exist on modern piccolos, There are rumors that he was writing for some kind of unique Vienna piccolo that had a low C, but if this instrument actually existed, it was very rare.
Mahler also has a lovely habit of writing his flute parts regularly down to low Bb/A# another note which does not exist. An example is in the 1st flute part of Mahler 6, 1st movement, 4 after figure 29. It’s not the only time this happens. I think he’s even got a low A in one of his symphonies.
You either leave the note out, play it up an octave, or play the phrase up an octave. In any case you’re not playing what the composer originally wrote.
Mahler will have seen and heard Viennese simple-system flutes or Badger Boehm-system ones going down to at least Bb. (But they weren’t alto flutes.) There’s a good picture of a Badger at http://goferjoe.bygones.biz/badger.htm. For the Viennese flutes, see http://www.oldflutes.com/viennese.htm, about half-way down, ‘After 1850′.
A piccolo to C is not uncommon. Rudall Carte made them until the 1950s, and there’s recently been a resurgence of interest in them. The piccolo player in the Berlin Phil, Michael Hasel, sometimes plays one — see http://www.braunflutes.com/piccolo.htm.
Great links, Mike!
Yes, you’re right, the low C becoming is an option again on modern piccs probably because of those Mahler notes! Although the Braun piccolo, which your link shows, is used mainly in Europe, within Germany generally, and not so much in the US. It’s the traditional favorite of the Berlin Phil.
As far as I know, US piccolo makers, except as I recall Nagahara in Boston, aren’t offering the low C as an option,
The flutes in your links are wonderful! And yes, many of them do have the capacity to go down to low A. But just compare these instruments to what we play on today – it’s like comparing a Model T Ford to a modern car! A completely different looking and sounding instrument!
Looking at these instruments makes it easier to understand that you simply cannot always take a composer’s writing at face value. Many, like Mahler, were writing for completely different instruments than what we play on today. The parts, by necessity, have to be subject at times to minor modifications to compensate for the differences.
Mahler? You mean low A in the bassoon or something like that? My humble opinion is that if Mahler wrote it, it could be played by someone he knew on an instrument available in an orchestra that he was going to conduct. Didn’t he also write some of those extended register notes in parentheses? There are “mistakes” in Mahler which he corrected (miscalculations would be a better term). For example, rewriting the percussion parts in Sym 5 after the first performance because they were too heavy for the textures. That’s why there are several versions of some of his works. And how many hammer strokes are there really in Sym 6?
Conductors often tinker with scores and those changes are in their performances materials. I have no personal experience with players changing their part unless directed to do so by the conductor.
I know of a conductor who changes the meter in the players parts of Tchaikovsky 4, first mmt to reflect so-called modern notation. The players see everything rebarred into 3/4 + 3/8 instead of 9/8. Some conductors use a 4/4 version of la Danse sacrale. Even Stravinsky wrote a simplified version which sounds the same but looks different.
PS: The question of doubling winds is hardly on the same level as changing the actual notation in a score. (My opinion, not fact).
“Mahler also has a lovely habit of writing his flute parts regularly down to low Bb/A# another note which does not exist. An example is in the 1st flute part of Mahler 6, 1st movement, 4 after figure 29. It’s not the only time this happens. I think he’s even got a low A in one of his symphonies.”
I just looked up that passage – interesting. If those low notes occur regularly, I would think that’s not a mistake but that Mahler meant it that way and that he knew it could be done. I am not saying he was an infallible genius who must not be questioned, but the instrumentation of his scores in general is very detailed and they contain a lot of very specific playing instructions. He wasn’t a guy sitting somewhere in the corner writing huge symphonies with no practical experience. He spent most of his life in the orchestra pit or on the podium and he performed all of his symphonies up to the 8th, often finetuning the scores as he rehearsed and performed them.
I don’t know either what type of flutes were customary in Vienna and other places he worked back then, but things were much less standardized back then than they are now.
This article
http://www.oldflutes.com/19C-play.htm#range
suggests there were flutes with a Bb foot around. I am pretty sure a flute player once showed me an alternative foot which he carried around in his case which went down to Bb or maybe even A.
In most of these cases where things look a little “funny” to us, investigating the historical context clarifies the matter and in most cases, it turns out the composers did actually know what they were doing! That’s basically hat the whole period performance thing is about.
Another good example for this – and a favorite pet peeve of mine – is the ending of Ein Heldenleben. 8 bars before the very end, when the violin solo ends and that final fanfare begins in the brass, the first entry is a low C played by two trumpets in Eb. Back then, they also had F trumpets which are quite a bit bigger than C or Bb trumpets so they have a much rounder, fuller, darker sound. They can also be crooked to E or Eb. Confusingly, they actually transpose *up* but they are written an octave *lower* . So this entry sound Eb under the middle C and that would be an F on a modern trumpet – but those only go down to F#. I guess some players can reach the F (Eb) by pulling out the tuning slide but the note is very hard to make speak and it sounds hollow and brittle on many trumpets, especially those with rotary valves. So often, they just give it to the trombones. But that totally changes the character of the passage. The low trumpet sound is much darker, it has a sombre, noble quality which gives this passage a very specific character which gets lost or at least significantly changed when those notes are given to the trombones.
Hi, Michael,
I’m not saying that Mahler necessarily made a mistake, I’m just saying that you have to modify what he wrote to play in orchestras today. It’s an example of how players and conductors cannot always take what a composer has written literally.
In the case of Mahler, it’s clear-cut. He’s written notes which do not exist on the modern Boehm flute, which is used in professional orchestras today. I suppose you can spend a lot of money to have a special foot made just to play those notes, but rarely does anyone do this because you can barely hear them. You just change the part. Usually people just leave it out.
In the passage you quoted, it probably doesn’t make a real difference if you just leave out that one very brief note, no one will notice as that is covered by the strings and clarinets – the flutes just add a little color here.
I guess it really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to spend a lot of money for that special foot for players in amateur or youth orchestras but I would expect a professional orchestra to have the right equipment for the job. Just as if an orchestra wants to play the Alpensinfonie, they have to have a Heckelphon.
Apart from Mahler, how common (or not) are such low notes in the repertoire?
“Apart from Mahler, how common (or not) are such low notes in the repertoire?”
Michael, the answer is never. I have never seen any other composer besides Mahler intentionally write below a low B for flute or low D for piccolo. I’ve done lots of repertoire from every different period, by many composers and I have never seen these low notes, unless by mistake.
Even a low B (which most orchestral flutists are now equipped to play – a low B is standard) is unusual enough for flute players to have created a compilation on works with low B here: http://www.larrykrantz.com/lowb.htm
You’ll see that the list includes only 49 orchestral works which contain a low B. Although this list is constantly being updated – you can see that even low B is rather unusual.
http://www.larrykrantz.com/lowb.htm
Flute players are not particularly interested in improving their equipment to play low notes, esp. if it’s only for playing Mahler and they’re notes you can’t hear. This includes players at the top professional level. No, I’m afraid that even in the most elite orchestras of the world, seldom would
you ever find a flute player with the specific equipment to play a low Bb/A# in Mahler.
Many flautists hold firm that adding extensions to the end of the flute, even a low B, has an adverse effect on sound quality and intonation in the rest of the instrument. Rampal. for example, played with a C foot. The French school adapted his aversion to the B foot, and that is still quite widespread, esp. in Europe.
When I first ran into these low Mahler notes, I asked around. I called several more experienced players in top orchestras to inquire how they do it. “Oh we just leave those notes out!” was the reply hands down.
So, again, I reiterate my point: a composer’s work is not written in stone. Players change what is written, sometimes by necessity, as in Mahler. ,.
Yes ,i think he did some spectacular playing on some of the Tchaikovsky Symphonies recordings with Rostropovich.
“Alan Cumberland, Timpanist of the LPO in the 70s/80s was the timpanist that pioneered the practice of changing the notes in the timpani repertoire to better reflect the harmonic intention of the composer.”
I know firsthand that this statement is false – I studied with the late Fred Hinger, who was timpanist with the Philadelphia Orchestra in the 50′s and 60′s (and subsequently with the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra until his retirement in the early 80′s). Eugene Ormandy would frequently have him change or add parts on a regular basis (you can hear it in may Philly recordings of that era).
Russell, thank you for the information, I stand corrected,
Many timpanists frown on frequent amendation of notes to original timpani parts, especially in classical compositions. The late Prof. Richard Hochrainer, past timpanist with the Vienna Philharmonic actively discouraged note commendations. However, his teacher, Professor Hans Schnellar, inventor of the Schnellar timpani and timpanist of the VPO under G. Mahler, was among the first to pioneer note changes, a famous example being in a work by Richard Strauss, that Strauss himself accepted.
Are you really certain that re-writing the works of C19th composers to feature a more prominent timpani part is necessarily a good thing?
I am not entirely sure that’s actually what Derek meant. I think what he meant is that on modern pedal timpani, you can fine-tune the pitch to, as he put it, “better reflect the harmonic intention of the composer”, meaning non-tempered tuning according to what role the note plays in a given chord. I don’t think he meant actually rewriting the timpani part, adding more notes. I am not aware of that practice being widespread at all.
Michael. this is exactly what I mean. Dvorak NW Symphony 1st movement. Listen to the timpani part!
OK. But what was so special about the timpani part? I’m tone deaf in that register, what were the changes? Was the orch playing from the critical edition or from parts edited based on the urtext? Did the conductor mandate the changes or did the player suggest them, if any? I have a real problem considering Dvorak as a composer who needs help with any part including the timpani line.
PS: I am always annoyed by the tempo deviations in this movement inflicted by the conductor (flute solos especially, oops 2nd flute solos, but that’s another story based on the manuscript).
Robert, if you can’t hear whats going on, the rest is a mute point, !:)
Wow,who is this guy?Fabulous!!!
I shall then remain mute on this moot point.
It´s not about making timpani parts more prominent.It`s about avoiding timpani notes to clash with the harmonies the orchestra plays.For instance,in Dvorak`s Ninth the Timpani play aN E-Natural to a D-Major chord,simply because Timpani back then could`t change the note fast enough doing it by hand.To my ears,this sounds terribly wrong and out of tune,and it often afflicts the wind intonation,too.
Where in the piece does that occur?
If I may offer one or two corrections to some of the above. The Philharmonia timpanist is – and has been for some time Andy Smith, renowned for his big, assertive tone who can be heard to great effect in many of Muti’s recordings with that orchestra (particularly his Tchaikovsky cycle). . In the late 50s/60s it was almost certainly Denis Blyth that Mr Radnor saw under Rudolf Kempe (if indeed it was the Philharmonia, as Kempe was associated with the RPO and, briefly, with the BBCSO). The timpanist that you saw under Gergiev at the Proms was the wonderful Nigel Thomas – I was there too and went up to him after the concert and complimented him on his superb pedalling in the 3rd movement of the Tchaikovsky. He is the current LSO timpanist – Simon Carrington is currently Principal Timpanist with the London Philharmonic.
John Chimes of the BBCSO has been its Principal Timpanist for many years now and is a supreme player – the Last Night of the Proms is always enlivened by his pedalling in the Henry Wood Sea Songs Fantasia, in Rule Britannia – see for example 3:01-3.36 at http://tinyurl.com/azv85mv
Sorry,you are right.It was Nigel Thomas,fantastic player indeed! And I should have mentioned John Chimes.His pedal work in Sea Songs Suite is truly phenomenal!
All of these comments are terrific. Thanks, gents, for the information and education. This yet another reason why I like this site so much, Norman. Your readers are knowledgeable and engaged.
Anyone who’s seen SF Symph’s educational documentary on Tchaik 4, “Keeing Score” with MTT, will understand why David Herbert is in such demand!
There’s a segment on the timpani, with MTT narrating, which describes how Mr. Herbert prepares his instruments (natural skin heads from Ireland) and the artistry that goes into his performances.
Here’s a clip from the part that features Mr. Herbert. As I recall, the documentary has even more detailed footage of Mr. Herbert’s preparations. Not sure who’s playing cymbals at the end of the clip, but he is also sensational!
The cymbals player is Tom Hemphill.
Thanks, Zubin!
Mr. Hemphill is virtuoso on the cymbals, truly!
The name of the SF Symphony’s documentary with MTT is actually “KEEPING SCORE”. Here’s more information:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/shows/tchaikovsky4/
I had no idea there is an orchestra called the Dublin Philharmonic. Is that you conducting? And who is the miracle timpani player?
I ODed on that symphony a long time ago (I had to play it way too often in a former life) so I don’t enjoy listening to it anymore, unfortunately. Can you point me to specific passages that I should check out?
Yes, that is me conducting. The timpanist is Kirol Petrov.
So he is not British? Then he can’t be all that great, can he? I mean, according to you…
So which places should I check out? Like I said, I really have no nerve to sit through the whole piece (or movement) but since I am taking your points seriously, so please take my (and Harold’s!) requests to be a little more specific seriously, too!
A very significant stretch for example:1st movement,bars63-75.Instead of playing E natural and B natural all the time,Mr.Petrov plays the cello and double bass-line.
Perfect pitch must be a terrible burden. I just don’t get it. Perhaps Dvorak wanted the pungent sound he actually wrote. I find it arrogant beyond belief to change what a composer wrote. Are we congratulating the timpanist? The conductor? I don’t have the ears or the patience to research this but I wonder if someone like George Szell makes those timpani adjustments? (and he adjusted lots of things in Beethoven and used the Schumann-Mahler rewrites, I believe). Muti, Toscanini ? (just to name a few purists and I know that Muti has ears because they hold his glasses on his face). Perhaps Mr. Andy Smith can comment on which conductors made such changes, which conductors refused, and which conductors didn’t notice the difference. No need for anyone to reply to my diatribe because this is my last post on this topic. My blood pressure is rising…
Changing the timpani part to match the prevailing harmony is still a very controversial topic among timpanists today, but to answer your question, Eugene Ormandy, Lorin Maazel and Claudio Abbado have all requested changed notes from various timpanist colleagues of mine. However, I would like to correct the misconception that it is a modern habit ‘invented’ in London in the 1970s – though it was certainly very popular from then on. Verdi’s timpanist Boracchi in his ‘Manuale pel timpanista’ discusses using his (then brand new) invention of a tuning crank to alter those pitches which clash with the overall harmony. Verdi greatly esteemed this player but he continued to write ‘wrong’ notes, presumably knowing that the dissonances would be cleared up by the more able timpanists (or those possessing more modern equipment) performing his work.
Like anything in music, there is a balance – I seem to remeber hearing a recording of a timpani chromatic scale in Beethoven 2, which perhaps goes too far….
WOW!!! Terrific player,and overall a very fine version of this much played symphony too!
…I meant mine and Robert Fitzpatrick’s requests, of course, not Harold’s, I got that confused…
Michael, I am flabbergasted that you want me to point out the exact sections. The whole point of the exercise is to not to bring prominence or attention to the timp part but to render the composers harmonic intentions in a clearer fashion. Remember this is an issue of orchestration NOT composition. If you can’t hear it or find it, then the job has been well done!
And if you can’t be bothered to listen through 10 minutes of the first movement to experience the event, well what can I say! 
:)
I could show you sections of Beethoven 3rd when the trumpets add 4 bars at the end of the first movement that would have been impossible in Beethoven’s time with natural trumpets. Or sections in Beethoven 5th here horn and bassoons are doubled and not indicated in the score, etc, etc But that would be taking the mystery out of it, wouldn’t it!
I know the passages in Beethoven 3 and 5 you are talking about. In fact, I wrote about the horns in 5 earlier. I looked into the trumpet thing at the end of the first movement of the Eroica and I seem to recall that some of the notes Beethoven left out could actually be played but I forgot the details. I would have to look at the score to refresh my memory but I am about to board a plane to Frankfurt.
Sorry I didn’t think it was such an outrageous demand that you simply point out a timing in the clip or give me a few bar numbers which is exactly what Harold did. I am just not into Dvorak 9 right now!
Such a great thread with some fascinating observations about timpanists. I’ve a very strong personal admiration for the Viennese hand-tuned timpani and their timpanists, there’s something about that particular sound which the pedal-tuned versions don’t seem to be able to obtain.
I spent a few years in Vienna and was a member of an excellent amateur orchestra there – the Akademischer Orchesterverein in Wien. http://www.aov-wien.at/english.htm Many of the players had studied with members of the Vienna Philharmonic – some even substituting in the Staatsoper while they were students reading law or similar! Actually being able to play with a group using the inimitable Viennese oboes, horns, clarinets and timps was a great experience, not to mention having the chance to learn first-hand some of the secrets of the Viennese string sound. Though I have to say, British musicians have FAR superior sight-reading skills!
Mahler knew exactly what he was doing when he orchestrated and he was definitely writing for a wooden Viennese flute – on which the low notes mentioned would have been available without any issues. These flutes were still being played in the Vienna Philharmonic up to the 1920s. It would be interesting to hear from any professional flautists who have invested in the necessary equipment to play such repertoire as intended… I find it hard to believe, for instance, that the Vienna Phil would just “leave out” or change the flute part in such cases?
Hand tuned timps very often sound very approximately in pitch,at least for me who suffers from perfect pitch!
Hello, Rosalind,
I enjoyed reading very much about your 1st hand experience with the Viennese sound! What a marvelous opportunity that must have been!
In reply to your question about the low notes on the flute, as a caveat to what I’ve written above, I will confess that I actually did have silver tube extensions made for myself and the members of my section in order to play the low Mahler notes.
They are not a perfect solution – they only work if you already have a B foot, they don’t work with all fingering combinations, and it’s clumsy to whip them on and off during a symphony. The conductor usually never notices if you play the note or not. This was our solution. I don’t know of any other professional flute section who has gone thru this trouble. Most, as I’ve said, just leave the notes out.
It would, indeed, be interesting to hear from the Vienna Phil players to know how they handle these low notes.
I have an LP set from the 1960s, I believe, that contains photos of the VPO in which there are wooden flutes visible. Could they have been playing them that late?
We should not forget the late Werner Tharichen, for a large part, Karjan’s timpanist in Berlin. I studied from him. He was a fine composer too. Has anyone performed his timpani concerto ? Also many other fine works that he penned. But it was as a timpanist that his musicianship blazed in it’s glory. He was also the ‘chirman’ of the BPO during much of Karajan’s reign & it’s thank’s to his genorosity that (Tharichen) introduced me to the great man. I also played with the Philharmonic as an ‘extra’. After many years of playing in the timpani chair of various orchestras I became a conductor. But to regress. Tharichen was proufdly infulential to me as a musucian ‘par excellence’. and as a lovely considerate person.
I’m surprised that in this lengthy discussion no one has pitched in (no pun intended) on plastic via calf skins, since the subject came up briefly. It makes a world of difference to the sound of the entire orchestra when the timpanist uses natural skins — it’s so much richer. But of course they are murder to tune and so most timpanists steer clear of them. If I’m backstage at concerts where the timpanist has been using natural skins, I do my best to look him out and thank him.
Actually, Martin, the topic has come up several times here!
I especially liked hearing from the gentleman in Ireland who wrote in from near where the best natural skins in the world come from! During our discussion, British timpanists were accused of prefering plastic heads, which was soundly refuted, and finally, if you watch the video of David Herbert playing with the SF Symph, there is a very detailed section about his use of natural skin heads.
Not sure how you could have missed this. All very interesting!
Did you know that Rattle can roll!?!:
The title of this article is very misleading. Mr Herbert was not “poached” from the San Francisco Symphony. He won the position based upon an audition where he was victorious over approximately 100 other timpanists trying to win the job.
No probation period? Wow, talk about a give-away!
Herbert is good, but let’s hope his interest in playing in the orchestra doesn’t die off like the former principal percussion who once stated that playing in the CSO was like a factory job.
Congratulations David Herbert! You’ll be missed in SF, but highly welcomed in Chicago. I enjoyed the discussion thread about what makes a great timpanist, and there’s no question that you are among the world’s leading artists.
In terms of plastic versus natural skin heads, it is typically assumed that the superior sound routinely comes from the natural skin heads, until I heard timpanist Ed Stephan of the Pittsburg Symphony play with the PSO in Berlin on Sept. 11, 2011 in a performance of Mahler’s 5th and R. Strauss’ Rosenkavalier Suite. His intonation and articulation while performing on synthetic heads was simply outstanding!
Cloyd Duff of the Cleveland Orchestra during the Szell era and on through the 1980′s deserves mention in this conversation of great timpanists. Duff and his students have had a lasting imprint on current American timpani playing. He played on calfskin heads until Maazel’s demands for loud playing led to many split heads and a move to plastic when playing for the then-Music Director. Duff’s playing was reknowned for purity of pitch and intonation as well as a warm and singing tone that is still unparalleled IMO, and can be heard especially on the Szell recordings such as the Beethoven Symphonies and a fabulous live recording of Mahler 6. To judge from Dave Herbert’s stick designs (which closely parallel those of Duff), use of calfskin, playing seated etc. I think there is also a strong Duff influence on his artistry (I never met Duff or had a lesson with him but he has had a profound influence on my playing as an amateur timpanist). Without casting undue aspersions on his longtime predecessor, Chicagoans are in for a real treat timpani-wise.
I didn’t know that natural heads break more easily than plastic ones. I grew up in Berlin so I saw the BP in concert often. Their timpanists sometimes played enormously loud (and still do, of course) on natural heads but I only saw one break. That was near the end of the last movement of Beethoven 7 with Karajan.
As a high school student, I began to really find my own voice and outlet by playing timpani, and since that time I’ve had moderate success and experience studying music in college, and working semi-professionally overseas. I am ecstatic about Mr. Herbert’s appointment, and can’t wait to hear him with the orchestra! I hope this will lead to a timpani renaissance within the academic and musical institutions of the city!
My passion for timpani really began to develop and mature during the last years of Don Koss’ career. I would go to as many CSO concerts as I could afford and fit into my own rehearsal schedule while in high school and my undergraduate years, often hearing the great repertoire for the first time live! Many an evening I would leave these concerts completely in awe and speechless!
Yet, this was a period in my life I was playing something I called “timpani roulette.” I never quite understood Mr. Koss’ style, or artistic choices, and not having any idea what to expect of who would be on the concert before hand, I would always hope it was the assistants turn to play! I admire the longevity of his career, and obviously the respect he gained from some of his colleagues, but I regretfully could develop a comparable sense of appreciation.
But now there is this development, where one of the greatest timpanists in the world, and a musician I greatly admire, is now joining our community! I’ve waited several, several years to see who would eventually succeed the man that reminded me of the Penguin from the Batman series, and I couldn’t be more excited about this new period the CSO is now moving into!
I’m wondering if there are others like me out there, and in the same predicament of having never known how to politely disagree with what was the timpani tradition of Chicago for a very long time! Anybody? Anybody?
Same here, unfortunately. I never understood why the CSO had such an obviously weak timpanist. You could hear on many recordings that he had a hard time to even play a smooth roll, especially in loud passages. When I saw them live with Bruckner 7, he struggled audibly and visibly with the long roll at the end of the first movement, especially when it got louder. He stood there hunched over the timpani and leaning over to one side, and seemed to work a lot with his whole arms where most timpanists seem to play mostly from the wrist and lower arm.
I think it’s difficult to say there was a “Chicago timpani tradition” over the past several decades, although the percussion section has had many fine players, including the current assistant timpanist, Vadim Karpinos. It looks to me like there is a very good chance this will change for the better now!
I think you will find that the VPO timp sound is due to the fact that they use Goat skin not Calf skin for the timpani heads!
Derek,
GOAT skin? Really? What are the advantages of goat skin over calf skin if I may ask? And by VPO, you mean
Vienna Philharmonic, correct? This thread is revealing some very bizarre realities of the timpani world.
I had no idea that a goat skin would have different tonal properties than a calf skin. Are there other orchestras who use goat skin? If the calf skins come from a special farm in Ireland, are these goats also specially bred someplace in Austria to be timpani heads? Can you elaborate please? Thank you.
Hi June, Yep, Vienna Phil is the only orchestra I am aware using Goat skin on their Timps. I don’t know where they get them from. But if anything happens that little farm in Ireland there will be big problems in the Timpani world!
I see that FISH SKIN is also offered as an option. Are there any timpanists who actually use this? Do timpanists experiment with different types of skins, or do they pretty much just prefer calf and goat? I also notice that a whale bone timpani sticks are available. Is this very common?
Where did you see the references to fish skin and whale bone timpani sticks? I couldn’t find them in the links Owen provided.
Hi, Michael.
I was trying to learn more about the differences between calf and goat skin heads, I googled them and fishskin came up, too!
http://www.mid-east.com/Info/drumheads.html
Same with whale bone sticks. They came up under timpani sticks! If no one here has commented on these, they are probably not too mainstream. But certainly interesting!
There’s much more to the special sound of the timpani of the Vienna Philharmonic than the use of goat skins as timpani heads. These drums are Schnellar timpani, a style first made by Prof. Hans Schnellar, former principal timpanist of the VPO at the beginning of the last century. He was the timpanist who played for Gustav Mahler. He was also timpanist for the Royal Convertegebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam and the Tonhalle Orchestra of Zuerich, Switzerland.
Schnellar timpani are tuned by a lever that lifts the bowl up into the head with the flesh hoop anchored at a fixed height above the base assembly. There is no need for a counter hoop, a metal ring used on most other models of timpani to pull the head down over a bowl fixed in height above the base assembly. The counterhoop tends to suppress the sustain of the note after the head is struck with a mallet. The copper hand-hammered bowls of the Schnellar timpani are also much deeper than most other models. In the USA, the Boston Symphony is now using Schnellar timpani made in the Netherlands. The larger Romantic era and smaller Classical era Schnellar timpani are built and offered by the Wienerpauken Werkstatt in Vienna, Austria.
Hi Owen, not convinced on the physics of your argument regarding the counter hoop and lack of sustain. However, the deeper bowl would have an impact on the sound in addition to the Goat skins.:) Of course not much discussion here on the type of stick employed as this is also a contributing factor.
Derek, much more can be learned about the Schnellar timpani of Vienna by visiting http://www.pauken.at/romantic##Romantic.
Or, visit “Timpani Shop Talk” on Facebook.
The issue with the counterhoop affecting the sustain is real. For this reason, some timpanists are converting to using clamps on the flesh hoop and removing the counterhoop completely, although this configuration is standard with Schnellar timpani, with many models having clamps inserted directly into the fleshhoop.
For information about Viennese mallets, especially mallets with flannel heads, look here:
http://www.mallets.at/en/history
For information about high quality goatskin heads for timpani:
Sonnberg Ziegen Pergamente now advertises via Facebook
sonnberg.ziegenpergamente@facebook.com
Hi Owen, Excellent information, many thanks. I assume you are a timpanist yourself? Where do you play? best, Derek
Hi Derek, It’s a pleasure to make your acquaintence! Yes I am a timpanist (and an environmental scientist). I’ve played in Oak Ridge, TN for the past 36 years. My international business travel brings me to Vienna often, which is where I learned about Prof. Hans Schnellar and his special make of timpani. I first learned to play the timpani in the SF Bay Area more than 50 years ago, and would frequently attend SF Symphony concerts when Roland Kohloff was the SFSO’s principal timpanist. Roland was David Herbert’s teacher at Julliard. When you watch David perform, notice that his drums are arranged using the German set-up, with the larger drums positioned to the right side of the player. Most timpanists in the UK, France, Italy and the USA (with the exception of students of Cloyd Duff) play with the larger drum on their left, as it would be with the base notes on the piano keyboard. Does this make a difference in sound? Only if you are a member of the trombone section sitting off to the left of the timpanist, or if you are accustomed to lead with a rather heavy right hand..
Did you know the great Timpanist David Searcy? He was originally from San Francisco. Later timpanist at Munich Phil then at La Scala, sadly passed away last year.
I was first introduced to the name David Searcy in 1963-4, when I met his close colleague and friend Ms. Bonnie Lynn Adelson, who was studying timpani and performance with Roland Kohloff at San Francisco State. Bonnie was the timpanist at the time for the San Leandro Symphony. Bonnie went on to study with Saul Goodman at Juilliard and eventually became the principal timpanist of the Zagrab Symphony Orchestra in Croatia and the Luxembourg Philharmonic, where she retired as timpanist just a few years ago. She and David remained close friends over the decades. I believe David and I both may have received our early private instruction from the late Dr. Harry Bartlett of the Oakland and SF Symphony.
Bonnie and David were married at one point.:) I have met her, but about 27 years ago when she was in Luxembourg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_z4m8NguNE
The great David Searcy performing the March for Brass and Timpani by B. Heisinger (a work originally written for Bonnie Lynn Adelson when whe was still at Castro Valley High School in the early 1960′s).